Ohio has had a fair number of Republican leadership. The budget problems here are nothing new. Taft raised fees on just about every possible thing he could find in order to try to save the state. But no one dares touch the sacred "cash cow" for the corporations. The middle class will continue paying a greater % in taxes so the privileged can get their TAX CUTS, avoid Capital Gains taxes, etc. Kasich hired his own people in at a CONSIDERABLE INCREASE IN PAY over what Gov. Strickland was paying his people. That's not fiscally responsible. It's interesting how government officials EXCLUDE themselves from the rules they are imposing on other working people. Interesting how they consistently vote themselves pay raises. Interesting how they have no problem with the billions of dollars unleashed by the Citizens United ruling that will help buy elected officials for the benefit of the corporations, yet complain about the small percentage of people in Unions. Unions have been CONCEDING for years in order for people to keep their jobs. It isn't the teachers, the firemen, the cops who caused the fiscal problems. Ohio has lost jobs overseas. By the way, I'm happy to say that our 3 mail-in ballots voting NO on Issue 2 were mailed several days ago. Unions helped establish a decent standard of living for ALL. You won't realize it until your pay & benefits decrease and Republicans eliminate minimum wage and you're working O.T. without pay.

No kidding. I suppose Quinnipac and PPP use fuzzy math and the actual results on November 8th will in no way reflect the poll results, right?

Crazy math rules and statistics! Who needs data, means and medians, and standard deviations anyway?!

That's too bad, Terese. But even if you will not support me, I will continue to do my best to educate your children, regardless of what condition they are in when you send them to me. If they are tired because you kept them up late, I'll try to be energetic. If they are hungry because you didn't have enough food, I'll bring in snacks. If they are cold because you didn't buy them a coat, they can borrow mine. I'll work them before school and after school. I'll reply to e-mail questions from them late at night, after I have put my own children to bed, and before I grade papers and do lesson plans.

If you don't feel that what I do is special, I'll still treat your child as if they are special, because they are. If you don't feel like I am worthy of health care for me and my family (for which I pay 20%), or a retirement (for which I pay my full contribution), I will still work hard for your child because I believe they are entitled to the best possible future I can give them.

Accountability is a fine thing as long as it applies to everyone. But I see no accountability for the bankers and financiers who crashed the ecomony in 2008, and for which the rest of us, including public sector workers, are paying. The people who caused the crash are getting record pay and bonuses.
What about accountability for the military? We've been at war for 10 years against rag tag insurgents in both Iraq and Afghanistan, with a blank check for a budget (unlike the schools which have been cut, cut ,cut), and still no victory or anywhere near.
Terms like entitlement and special treatment would best describe the rich. Inherited wealth, which describes most rich people, does no work but collects huge incomes, making them freeloaders, parasites and thieves who live off other people's labor. The top 20% of the population has 85% of the nation's wealth. The bottom 80% get a whopping 15% of the wealth. This is the root cause of all our problems.

Hmmm? Trump, first bought a 10 unit apartment building risking his money, time, credit rating, etc..now a multimillionaire hiring thousands. Bill Gates has idea, takes risks, becomes rich- responsible for others using THEIR talents to become rich. Steve Jobs, starts Apple in garage, took risks, worked hard, became billionaire, paved the way for others to become millionaires. Ray Kroc, Dave Thomas, bought one burger joint that became international franchise in McDonalds & Wendy's. Whether your a Hotel, Oil, Real Estate, Fast Food or Hi Tech Tycoon, they started small, took risks, didn't always win but kept going. And people want to demonize THESE GUYS? Next time you type on your Mac or Windows PC, eating a Big Mac while watching Apprentice & posting to Facebook, maybe thank those who took risks, employ thousands & make your life more convenient. We should want to raise everyone up to that level, have policies that promote not punish it while following your own moral compass, as I'm sure many sacrifices were made on most million-billionaire's ride to the top. Not sure why so many people act like the rich TOOK something away from them. AND, Wall Street funded ventures like these. Sure, if some broke the law I'm sure this administration would have indicted them, right? Government policy and ignorance allowed and at times promoted that activity. Any jailed politicians? Google/YouTube Barney Frank, watch him in action, if anyone needs to be behind bars for ignorance, its Frank.

Chris Williams: Thank you for being an outstanding teacher, please never lose that dedication. It is unfortunate how many people cannot appreciate the sacrifices teachers make.

Chris, Are you aware of Westlake's policy? File: IB
ACADEMIC FREEDOM
A major goal of education in a free society is to develop persons who can think critically, understand their culture, live compassionately with others, make sound decisions and live with the consequences of their judgment. Public education in a pluralistic society must strive to present as objectively as possible varied events, activities and perceptions reflected in history, literature and every other source of mankind's thought and expression. Because points of view differ and biases exist, students must have access to materials that express this diversity of perspective.
It is the responsibility of the teacher to make certain that such access to materials presenting all sides of a situation is available and discussed.
The principle of academic freedom presupposes intellectual honesty on the part of the person who exercises it, that they can and will discriminate between facts bearing on an issue and personal opinion.
In expressing a personal opinion, a teacher will make it known to students that the view is his/her own and will not attempt to bring students to a commitment to that personal viewpoint.
Adoption Date: May 23, 2002
Cross Refs.: INB, Teaching about Controversial Issues
Seems to me you want to be the Goddess and look down on the parent. Dude, you really shouldn't be allowed near anyones children.

Whoa Frances (no full name in accordance with Patch policy),
who gave you the right to assign people's motivations? Do you know Karen? You don't know me so don't tell me why I am for Issue 2.

The only pension issue addressed under SB5 is the contribution rate employees pay towards their pension. Other pension issues such as length of service for full retirement and other pension issues are being addressed under Senate Bill 5 which is currently before the state legislature.

The hijacking of Marlene Cain's remarks against Issue 2 by Building Better Ohio has been a major factor of the increase in poll numbers in favor of voting no on Issue 2. If you want to do some reading like I have here are two links for youl. http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/BillText129/129_SB_5_EN_N.pdf , this is Senate Bill 5 in its entirety as passed. The following is a summary of Senate Bill 5 prepared by the Ohio Legislative Service Commission http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/analysis.cfm?ID=129_SB_5&ACT=As%20Passed%20by%20House&hf=analyses129/s0005-rh-129.htm, this has references to the sections of the bill in brackets. Read, study, and make up your mind for yourself based upon facts and not sound bites.

That grandmother erroneously was told that the firefighters unions will ensure enough staff to get to fires quickly. In truth, when your Mayor stands up and says he can't afford the firefighters, he lays them off. Why can't he afford them? The top and middle managers, who drive by the fires, suck out the most money. The 30 year and your out retirements, the insane policy to allow pay out of accumulated sick and vacation days saved at the entry levels and paid out at the maximum levels are what keep firefighters and police levels down. See how they are bankrupting our cities by this one example http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/uploads/files/BUCKEYE_public_employee_millionaires_FINAL-1.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48655505/Are-Ohio-Public-Employees-Over-Compensated

i disagree; any future attempt by this Koch stooge governor in Wis--i mean, ohio, to lay off employees will be countered by lawsuits staying such action until the courts can mandate a negotiated settlement which will see other revenue-producing avenues ventured upon--i.e., the amoral banks and corporations and greedy rich will finally have to pay their fair share of taxes;

tax breaks are givne to the corporations to generate more jobs, you say?

have you seen the unemployment rates recent?

you see any of these corporations hiring?

how about any tea-party-ers hiring?

no, and no?

so what is the point of preserving their tax breaks--to break the back of the middle class, while leaving them without a leg to stand on via their Bill of Rights?

Looks like we have another nameless (dreameagle) coward, ashamed or embrassed to stand up but is part of the union machine. We must be getting to them bhwahhhahahahahaha

Not what I said Dreameagle, Tax breaks are given to corporations to either draw them to certain states/municipalities, or to keep them from leaving. You'll need both hands to count the number of corporations that left Cleveland for tax breaks to go to other states. Even more went overseas because of the high corporate taxes and cheaper labor. Ask ANY Corp CEO what their job is--the answer will be to generate the greatest profits possible, which I know you might think is a bad thing, but for anyone who has a 401K or wants what's left in their pension fund, that's where those monies are invested. I'm guessing that even YOU would want as high a return on your retirement portfolio. The greater value their stock, the better the return on even the littlest guy's investments. Tax companies more, they'll move(or have already moved) and everyone looses tax revenue. THAT is what is breaking the backs of the middle class, JOBS! A company's mission is not to generate jobs, its to generate profits. Generating jobs is a benefit of generating profits as they will work to generate more profits, and will need more people to do so. If I want more money, I'll continue my education, work harder/smarter, invent something, take more risks, etc... Not a SINGLE millionaire took a dime from me, not sure how taking from him will put food on my table or larger roof over my head. Obama's $1billn stimulus promised to create jobs. NOT! Just gave us a higher deficit, weaker economy and lazy thinking.

Cynthea even your arguments on arbitrary items make no sense. Here you are bashing someone for not using their full name, and at the same time championing someone who uses initials. You're pure entertainment.

@Donald, then YOU must be heartless, and don't really know what WAR is. This is politics, and people not being able to afford YOUR WAR any longer. The private sector is tired of overly supporting the public sector, oh wait, we might HURT the children. Nuff said.

Steve, please read this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48655505/Are-Ohio-Public-Employees-Over-Compensated

through for you, lass! you only neglected to include the disparity in tax payments between the wealthiest 1% and the unions;

Well stated T.S. I and many others agree with you.

and this is your brain on crack Koch-Cain...

And You can't group all public employees in one group as lazy overpaid people hell bent on draining the poor private sector of their hard earned dollars. The rich (Koch brothers) funded and started this movement to break unions, destroy public education, de-regulate enivironmental laws etc. Yes, not all rich are evil. But they drew first blood against hard working people who only want to make decent salaries and have a retirement someday. And yes, coporations are pitting states against each other to see who can give the biggest tax breaks. But what happens once all the states are requiring no taxes of business? Maybe we can start paying them to move here? Where does it end? Maybe we should be pushing for legislation to fix that problem! We have all heard how bad the private sector has it and they are 7% unionized. Once we rush the public sector, 35% unionized, then we will be poised to compete globally with countries lke China. Soon we will have no unions or any other organization to represent labor and we can have our own slave labor right here in America. Then eliminate the EPA complete the transfermation. But answer this, how can the economy pick up if the consumers have no money to spend? When all the money is in the hands of a few. So keep coddling the rich, why should they pay a little more to provide teachers, police, and firefighters a decent salary and retirement when they don't even do it for their own employees? And on goes the greed!

Why does "global competition" make it impossible for the rich and big corporations to pay high taxes? Right now taxes are at their lowest in 50 years and still business continues to outsource jobs. Taxes have little to do with it; they are looking for their dream of slave labor wages (and slave laborers). Just today a report came out saying that 230 profitable companies like Exxon-Mobil, GE, Wells Fargo, FedEx, Carnival Cruises, etc, pay no federal tax. The treasury is losing hundreds of billions a year because of this. This is the cause of state and federal deficits; this and military spending.
Unions immune to criticism? You must be living under a rock. Conservatives have always trashed them, but in the past 30 years the criticism has been vitriolic.
Exactly what percentage of a car price goes to pensions and benefits? I know for a fact it is less than 10%. What percentage of a car price goes to executive compensation? Can you tell me that?
If the rich were taxed at 100% you could easily eliminate the deficit, since they have the overwhelming majority of the country's wealth. The top 20% of the population has 85% of the country's wealth. The bottom 80% has 15% of the wealth. This is why people in the private sector are not getting raises (along with their de-unionization); all the money is being funnelled to the top. It's because the rich have so much that the rest of us, public and private workers, have so little.
You're watching too much Rush Limbaugh

If I have to explain to you the effects of Global Competition today vs. 1950's it would take more than this forum to do so. This is why I said that self education is imperative. Business Week, Wall Street Journal, Investors Bus.Daily, etc.. Sorry, not knowing how tax structure effects global competition simply means you need an economics lesson. I said rising percentages, not set percentage. Saying a set percentage of the price of a goes towards legacy pension & benefits is also an uneducated statement, as each vehicle has a different price point and its not calculated by percentage, but but number of vehicles sold in a year divided by total cost of legacy benefits. That total percentage has increased significantly over the last 10 years, not a set percentage per each vehicle. Again, you must be watching too much of one channel, because conservatives HAVE complained about GE and others not paying taxes, just as conservatives HAVE complained about Bush and things like TARP...but show hosts on shows like MSNBC have you believe that conservatives don't care about that, just like they state conservatives don't care about minorities, clean water, etc.. Conservatives have complained about the inequalities or protections of Unions that arent afforded to non-union workers, not the unions themselves. Again, read, do your own research, and you'll even learn how ignorant it is to think 100% tax on rich will get rid of our debt/deficit. Math, its a good thing.

Oh, to answer your other question as far as what percentage of a CEO's salary goes towards the purchase of a car? The current CEO has a $1.7 million annually salary and $5.3 million in company stock over the next THREE years. So, if you want to look at what he actually gets paid in salary per year, the fact that GM sold 8,389,769 vehicles in 2010, his annual salary accounts for 21 cents per car, vs an average of $1,600 per car in legacy union benefit costs. See, math works! Of course, there are more executives that get paid a lot of money, but the $1,600 average per car is legacy costs, not present costs of what today's benefit package costs per car. I see that your in favor of wealth redistribution...I'm not sure if you realize this, but thats not only is socialism, its on the verge of communism. You like Socialism? Socialist countries, like Denmark, have to pay 180% tax on cars--yes, its true, I've been there--have an unbelievably high income tax rate between 39%-60%, AND have a 25% VAT tax, AND a 9% Social Security Tax. THIS is socialism. So, if you say what's wrong with distributing the wealth???? The short answer is...drum roll please...Socialism. So, still think wealth redistribution is the answer? Look at innovation from the US vs. Denmark. Denmark invented the paper clip, spray can and Legos. Not enough room here to state the innovations in the US. Capitalism rewards innovation, Socialism, not so much.

TS, you DO realize that much of the proponents' argument for SB5 is playing on the "I-want-what-he-has" emotion, right? The endless fight over who makes more (see http://www.scribd.com/doc/48655505/Are-Ohio-Public-Employees-Over-Compensated), the claims running rampant on these forums about how teachers work 180 days at 6 hours each...
This emotion the proponents are tapping into is creating a desire for the private sector to covet what their public sector counterparts have... calling for fairness... wanting what they have (despite TWICE as many having four year degrees and them STILL not earning more than the private sector)... basically a redistribution of the wealth, which is exactly what you and the same groups criticized the other party for condoning!!

You can't have it both ways! You cry against socialism, yet needle any ignorant public you can enough to make them think they're being treated unfairly because they don't have it as good as their neighbor. Unreal.

how about fixing some of the loopholes in the federal tax code first?

as it stands now, "tax" and "rich" is an oxymoron on the level of "military intelligence";

The reason the middle class is overtaxed is because the rich and corporations don't pay enough. Just today a report came out saying that 230 profitable companies, including ones like GE, Wells Fargo, and Exxon-Mobil, pay little or nothing in tax. The treasury is missing hundreds of billions because of this. I never hear conservatives complaining about this; everything is the fault of the unions.
Conservatives complain about overspending, and again blame unions and so-called entitlements instead of the actual culprit, the military. It spends over $1 trillion a year with 900 overseas bases and a series of endless unwinnable wars.
Cut the military budget in half and eliminate the Bush-Obama tax cuts for the rich and the deficit disappears.
You grossly exaggerate union benefits. I live in MA and my husband is a college teacher who gets 7 sick days a year, no time and a half and, if he retired after only 30 years, a small pension.
Why don't private workers have these benefits? They should! This is the richest country in the history of the world. Companies are making record profits and sitting on $2 trillion in cash, paying CEOs huge salaries and bonuses. Why aren't they giving workers raises and decent benefits? Or hiring?
You must be getting your numbers from some conservative think tank. . Conservatives try to downplay the country's wealth to protect the rich.
Why are you so interested in protecting the rich, who have been robbing us for the past 30 years?

if it was about fixing "SOME of the problems, some of the abuses, some of the 'loop holes' within the contracts..." as you say Cynthea, then why is the bill 300 pages long?! What don't you all understand about this bill being overreaching, overboard, and partisan agenda?! Nobody (in their right mind) is claiming that there aren't SOME worthwhile aims of SB5. Yet you continue to champion a bill that reaches FAR beyond these problems!

Your constant whining about sick days and retiring at 30 years gets you nowhere when you fail to understand the facts of compensation. http://www.scribd.com/doc/48655505/Are-Ohio-Public-Employees-Over-Compensated

You didn't answer his questions. Nice dodge

once again, rah-rah ing who she wants (with only initials to his(?) name), and calling out others who don't share her opinion. Were you a bully in school, Cynthea? Speaking of those trainings you pooh-poohed that teachers must go through when you made your asinine statement about teachers not being responsible for child safety, I just spent two days in OLWEUS anti-bullying training. Maybe I need to work with you.

Jake, if telling the truth is bullying then I guess you can say I'm guilty. At least I am not spending millions trading on fear mongering like the fire departments, the nurses, and the union thugs. God, I pray you are no where near any real children. You come here a spew your distorted version of reality. We have teachers like you in Westlake who are in complete violation of our policy to offer a complete exploration of both sides but send the children home saying Mommy & Daddy please don't steal my teachers 'rights'. These teachers Jake, don't seem to mind poisoning the kids. Do they realize this is one of the soviet tactics taught to put conflict between parent and child? Given your previous contempt for parents, I can see where you might find parents problematic. Children of the Corn. Maybe we should ask the kids, hey, which do you prefer, ice cream with mom and dad by voting Yes or giving the teachers another day off? See Jake, your kind like to twist meanings. A Yes Vote gives back fiscal responsibility to the elected councils and mayors and BOE's. That must scare the crud out of you.

Cynthea well said. I wonder if Jake is a teacher. Teacher and administrators have the same compensation packages. I believe, that may be why the administrators also do not want the SB5 to stay. As far as the bullying, I do not see that you are bullying.Allthough I can not say the same for others within the community. All of course is my opionion.

Thanks Beatrice. Jake thinks there is a conflict with me supporting the logical arguments of TS because I called out Chriss for trying to use my personal data against me while concealing his own. One of these things is not like the other, and normal people can see that. If I say Pat doesn't even live in Ohio and is clueless about the deep financial hole our citizens must content with, that must be bullying. If I say we need the tools to bring real fairness to our public service departments so that we can attract companies with JOBS and WORKERS and EMPLOYEES and who contribute to our communities, Jake and Company want to make it about me. It isn't. It is about surviving and thriving as a community so we all prosper. Once upon a time, that was what America was about.
Again, I am not against police or firefighters or nurses or teachers, or even unions. I am against the layers of abuse that have become cancerous leeches on our cities that must be fixed. Fixing can be painful, but then it will bring both sides to the table to mediate and negotiate.

Cynthea I could not agree more. If just half of the citizens would get more deeply involved, things would turn around, very quickly. I believe more and more citizens are getting involved, and that is why this election has turned so nasty. And it makes me wonder, if this is starting to worry, those that may have been doing things, that they should not be doing, to start to panic. Just an opionion.

Beatrice Thompson- You said, "Teacher and administrators have the same compensation packages." No, they don't. Administrators typically have much better compensation packages. But, it was nice of you to put that those "facts" were only your opinions instead of actually looking it up.

Michael, thank you for correcting me. I was thinking about the raises and health care benefits.I believe you are correct in saying, Administrators typically have much better compensation packages. Which again are only my opionions.

Why watch football today when I can come here for entertainment?
"One is not like the other"? I'm sorry, Cynthea. I guess I should apologize for assuming that this:
"Hey dreameagle, how about learning the Patch policy of only writing as your real name? First and last names so you have to take responsibility for your words. Until you act like a person, we don't really have to give any credence to anything you post."

...cannot be applied to someone like TS, who also ignores the Patch policy by using initials.

You're right, I must be the one who's crazy! This is the first time I've actually laughed when typing here on Patch. You are hilariously delusional.

Seriously though, if you even read my posts, you'll remember my post about indoctrination indeed being a concern and how vehemently against it I am. But I guess you like to make slanderous assumptions of someone you do not know and claim I am guilty of things that I've condemned. You can find them only a few clicks away.

Also, you criticize my "previous contempt for parents." What in God's name are you talking about? Again--you apparently need to go back and read my posts. I suppose by now I should give up hoping that you do. Guess that means I can stop reading your lunacy as well because all it results in is you putting words in my mouth.

And I'm the one you pray is no where near children? That's neat.

Excellent, I'll be there too. I think we need to continue pushing policies that keeps the unemployment rate at 9%, boosted our national debt past $14trillion, demonize all rich people, cut the military budget in half cuz who needs protection in today's secure & stable environment--GO OBAMA!!! WE NEED MORE OF THIS CHANGE!!! The Socialist States of America has a MUCH nicer ring to it.

I live in MA, not Ohio, so cannot attend, but thank you for inviting me. I will not support Obama because, like the Repubs, he is a Wall St. stooge. He has betrayed every constituency that elected him, and the "Super Commission" is giving him the cover to be the Pres. that privatizes/cuts SS, Medicare and Medicaid.
There's not a dime's worth of difference between the 2 major corporate parties; both favor the filthy rich and big business, while fleecing average people on their behalf. I plan to vote third party and will not be wasting my vote - I would waste it by voting for a party that does not represent my interests and in fact harms them.

The biggest welfare program we have??? Oh, my, God. That is THE most IGNORANT statement I've ever heard! Do you even know the definition of welfare my friend? I"m sorry, but I don't consider paying individuals that are trained to defend our nation, take up arms, put themselves in harms way, fly million dollar sophisticated aircraft, transport tons of equipment, set up operations; assist victims of natural disasters; take and follow orders, operate sophisticated computer equipment; respond, rescue and tend to the wounded; gather, disseminate, strategize and respond to terrorist activity; operate sophisticated ships, submarines & other watercraft, gather and distribute toys for underprivileged children;... I'm sorry, did I miss anything? How about all the physical training, classroom training, tactical training, leadership training and the skills learned, many take those skills and disciplines into the civilian sector when discharged. Those on welfare can't take care of themselves, many refuse to take care of themselves, most don't volunteer their services, their time, their brain power.Often they refuse to get retrained to be a productive member of society, and there are those that actually need welfare and I'm happy to have my tax dollars help them. There are areas to cut military spending, but to actually say its a welfare program? WOW. So, DT, be sure to thank those welfare recipients on November 11. (Veterans Day in case you have no clue, but you can call it Welfare Day)

Mr. Thompson - that is dirty, low blow. Has your argument really gotten so lame that you revert to such tactics?

TS, What Thompson means is that the military is a welfare program for the war profiteers. You know, the private businesses that bilk the government (i.e. the taxpayers) for $600 toilet seats and $400 wrenches.
These wars we are in are wars for profit, from Iraq (oil) to Afghanistan (access to oil) to Libya (more oil). These and the war profiteers. These wars are a way of transferring public money into private hands.

You want to debate about private counterparts of public jobs? And about them doing "better"? I'm just going to safely assume that you are not (and would never consider in a million years) referring whatsoever to charter schools, the conservative-supported complete failure in Ohio education? For which more laws are currently being proposed in the Ohio legislature to expand yet continue their exemptions on state tests?

Mr. Thompson - 1.) you might try spelling my last name correctly. 2.) perhaps you might show some respect and address me as Mr. Grossetti (the same respect I showed you). 3.) I am not a conservative. Check out my party of choice http://uscentrist.org/. 4.) anyone who knows me at all would laugh at your assertion that I am a "flag-waver". 5.) I spent 10 years serving in the Coast Guard and have a deep respect for all who serve. 6.) I puked when on May 8, 2003 President Bush stood on the deck the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln and declared: "Mission Accomplished." 7.) Each and every administration, Dem or GOP, has buckled to the MIC. DDE did, as did JFK, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Cheney I (Bush the elder), Clinton, Cheney II (Bush the younger) and now Obama. 8.) how you call the war in Afghanistan "justified" is beyond me. But what the hell do I know .. I couldn't possibly understand "nuance."

TS, this last "example" is a complete fabrication and you know it. Socialism does not mean complete equality; it means a decent lifestyle for everyone. You don't have the staggering wealth inequalities that exist in this country; wealth is much more equally distributed. This is the real reason crapitalists hate socialism. Socialism means high taxes, but everything is taken care of: education through college, medical care, 6 months-1 year maternity/paternity leave with job guaranteed held, unemployment for as long as needed, pensions at 95% of salary. A high standard of living for all citizens.
You didn't comment about socialism for business, which is rampant in this country. Why is socialism for business good, while socialism for individuals bad?
You also didn't comment about the wealth redistribution that's taken place over the last 30 years, from the non-rich to the rich., resulting in gross income inequality.

"How anyone thinks that its OK to take something that's not earned and just give it to someone else just to be fair is beyond me."
Since 1980 productivity has quadrupled in this country while the incomes of the rich have tripled/quadrupled and middle/lower incomes have stagnated or declined. All productivity gains have gone to the rich. You think this is right? If this isn't redistribution, I don't know what is. As I've stated before, conservatives only object to redistribution when it goes from the rich to non-rich, not the other way around.
How do you get money from the non-rich? They do have some assets. I've just explained how their wages were stolen by the rich over the past 30 years. Their pensions were stolen also. Nowadays everyone's on 401ks which means most people will be poor when they retire.
Having stolen our wages and pensions now the rich want to go after our Social Security and Medicare. As long as you have any kind of asset the rich will want it. The top 1% owns 40% of the nation's wealth, but of course that's not enough.
Most rich people don't "work hard"; they inherit their money. People who have a lot of money and don't work are freeloaders living off other people's labor.

cynthea, wisconsin unemployment rate march 2011 was 7.4 %. march 11 2011 gov walker signs collective barg law. october 2011 unemployment rate 7.8 %. wisconsin unemployment rate going up as the national avg is going down. once again facts do not back up your statements

Careful William. When Cynthea is faced with facts (or even opinions, for that matter!), she likes to distort your words. I'm anxious to see how she manages to counter this one since the Browns aren't holding my attentions so much today.

"In the socialist country of China, 10 million people live in caves." Where did you hear this from? Can you document it?
In the good old USA there are long term unemployed living under bridges. What's the difference, caves or bridges? Many unemployed have exhausted their benefits and are destitute (unlike socialist countries where you get unemployment as long as you need it).
There are 24 million unemployed or underemployed people in this country and all of them are "slothful and lazy"??? (By the way, I was employed my whole life until I retired).
Since 1980 productivity has quadrupled while incomes of the rich have tripled/quadrupled and middle/lower incomes have stagnated or declined. Who is doing the stealing here? Who is being greedy?
I'll bet you don't object to out of state right wing billionaires like the Kochs dumping millions into the state on behalf of Issue 2.

There are lots of examples of successful socialist states. Most of western Europe comes to mind - countries like Germany, Switzerland, France, Scandinavian countries, England, Italy, Spain. These countries are in financial trouble now because, like us, they deregulated and allowed their banksters and financiers to loot the economy and wreak havoc.
I wouldn't exactly call crapitalism a roaring success. Look at where we are right now. Milliions of poor and extremely poor, increasing every day. High unemployment and foreclosure rates. Boom/bust cycles. A small number of obscenly wealthy people while the vast majority of the population scrapes by. Staggering wealth inequalities.
So much for "innovation, creativity and ideas". Conservatives always focus on the wealthy elite because that's all they care about.

Tiffany J,
Cynthea is simply exercising her "Donald R. Thompson Right". Ask him why he posts so much and maybe I'll think you don't have an ax to grind.

Apparently Tiffany's ax got ground to nothing.

It gives me great pleasure that people who hide their identities while saying morally repulsive things look to see "what the tea-party'ers will make of that...". Just like when the Occupiers first appeared, everyone wanted to know "what the tea-party'ers will make of that..." We thought it was just great that everyone was wondering what we thought.
We seriously don't care about you. We do care about our schools laying off teachers because we have to give 6% raises and step increases to those with the highest pay, or our police departments losing the youngest and strongest while keeping too many at the top, or the $8 billion of debt that Ohio must balance (which would be like winning the $100 million lottery 80 times!). We care about Voting Yes on Issue 2, and we care about holding both parties feet to the fire to get it right, no matter the outcome of Tuesday. Win or lose, we care about standing with the normal citizens who don't "kill cowboys" or anyone.
I think I got your goat dreameagle because I don't see anywhere there is anyone looking for your position, locally, state wide, or nationally. But they are all breathlessly wanting to what the tea-party'ers will make of that...

heheheh

gee, Cynthia, i didn't know it was required to have a Western European name to leave comments here;

i'm hardly hiding...in fact, i'll wager i was long before you;

just to give you a clue, in my younger time we called tea-party-ers John Birch'ers;

the difference is, the tea-party-ers are more educated and so more subtle with their code words;

apparently, not many minorities are confused, are they?

there aren't even enough to push forward for photo ops as tokens, are there?

i see Kasich didn't care about me, either, on his carefully orchestrated tour of the state...careful, that is, to have avoided any inner city areas or areas around factories that have been closed down, or other dilapidated areas;

perhaps you will care about me when i vote Tuesday, with the rest of the poor people and minorities who didn't vote in the mid-term elections and have regretted it every day since;

and next fall, perhaps Kasich will care about me when i and the other poor people (in which i include many middle class people now, as well) vote him back into whatever Wall Street hole he crawled out of...

maybe he and Walker can keep each other warm under the Koch's back porch...

The state budget is now 6 billion not the 8 billion the Gov was saying. without doing anything 2 billion was slashed off the budget. The gov underestimated the economy in his budget.

Idea: Reduce the state sales tax from 5.5 percent to 4.0 percent and repeal all 54 exemptions in the law. The only loophole that would remain would be for sales tax-free groceries, an exemption that the Ohio Supreme Court has upheld.
This would slash 3.1 billion from the budget deficit. (

About 50 more ideas were discussed to help reduce the budget but were not done by the gov.

We need to raise revenue, not just cut, cut, cut all the time. We are really hurting basic services. I suggest a return to 1990 tax rates on business and the wealthy. Repeatedly cutting their taxes has not resulted in job creation, as we have fewer jobs now than then, and has driven us into an economic hole.

No pun intended, but that's the million dollar question. Is "Fair" defined as percentages? Does fair mean equatable/equal/balanced, not biased by how much a person makes? How much, if any, should those percentages go up the more you make and at what point? Who says its not fair, and who decides what IS fair? Is it fair to have a flat tax where everyone pays 15%, 20%...of their income. Some say its more fair to eliminate the income tax and change it to a national sales tax so that those that don't claim income but receive income who still consume homes, boats, furs, computers, cars, furniture,etc... with a Pre-bate for low income so they end up not having to pay any tax on items they would typically be purchasing at that income level is "fair" so those that don't pay taxes (whether you shelter it, get it illegally, etc..) still have to pay taxes when they consume goods & services ( with certain exemptions such as groceries, education, etc..) Is it "fair" to tax a rich man 50%, after all, he earned it, he didn't take it from anyone (assuming they're not a criminal) Is it "Fair" that 1% of the population pays 40% of taxes collected? Is it fair that a close friend of mine with three kids paid $700 in fed taxes, but got a $6,000 tax refund? Unfortunately its the entire tax code and entitlement programs that need revamping, but politicians on both sides are too afraid to do so. Get rid of the lobbyist; maybe we'll have real and "fair" tax reform that's fair and smart!.

Kinda agree with TS, who decides what's fair? If a Billionaire decides he wants to give a majority of his fortune to charity ( Like Bill Gates) or if they want to start another business, or blow it in Vegas,or if they want to buy an island, who is to say what's fair? It is, after all, HIS money, right? Isn't using percentages the core of trying to be fair? No one pays any more, no one pays any less, so let's make it fair. Is it fair that there are those that take advantage of welfare, foodstamps, WIC, unemployment, etc...do we hurt those that are taking advantage of the system? Well, we might catch & prosecute, but do we punish the people that are doing good with their entitlement when you have a few bad apples? I don't see a problem with not having a cap on SS taxes based on max annual salary, not against preventing rich from collecting social security. I've never been a fan of taxing productivity, and if anyone were to actually study www.fairtax.org, you'd see a truly smarter way to raise revenue for the government. Its not a VAT tax, and it doesn't tax low income. It will better fund Soc.Sec, remove the incentive of shipping jobs overseas, encourage savings & investment, etc... I tried debunking this form of taxation, but every objection I came up with, there's information on this site that proved me wrong. For the life of me I don't understand why politicians don't propose this ( Cain's tax plan is not the same from this) The site explains it quite nicely.