Hi Sue—thank you for your thoughts. Please update your user name, though, because our Terms of Use don't allow aliases: http://brecksville.patch.com/terms

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Rebecca its a shame that you believe that the the residents of Brecksville have no right to read the position of the teachers union . It appears to me that the union is finally exposed. A a single father with a son in the school system I am sick knowing he is being taught by a teacher that will lie and twist the truth...What a poor example... Its never been about the kids its about the money finally the contract proposal being made public has exposed the teachers. Oh by the way I am sure you have seen in the paper the grade that the Brecksville Schools received B-.........very sad

Tom,
The union isn't hiding anything. What job do you have, and how much do you make? What do you think a teacher should make? Teaching is a full time job. It may not have as many hours over the year as your example but teachers also don't get paid for those hours that they are not working. Most have to take added college courses, often during the summer. Does your company pay for your extra schooling, or doesn't your job require it? Have you ever gotten a bonus during good years? Teachers don't. Average salary doesn't mean a thing, since most of the inexperienced teachers have been let go. That does keep the average higher than it would be if the board hadn't cut so many programs and teachers.
Lets look at your two numbered points:

1 -Your district already offers many less offerings and programs than it did 4 years ago. It has much bigger classes than ever before, which makes it impossible for teachers to dedicate as much time to each student as they used to. How much more downhill would you like to see it go?

2- The last new levy to pass was 2004, that was supposed to last maybe 5 years. As a matter of fact, this district has not passed a new operating levy on it's first offering in over 40 years! This district has one of the lowest effective tax rates in Cuyahoga county. Of course it will need new levies. They should be larger levies to bring back many of the programs and offering that have already been cut.

There's an old adage that says "Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." You are clearly unfamiliar with our state teachers' retirement system (STRS). Teachers don't receive "80%+ of their top three years pay", but rather 66% of our top five years. We also contribute 10% of our pay directly to STRS, and unlike a 401-K, our money is taken directly from our pay--we don't even have a choice. Due to the poor economy, member contributions will increase to 14%, phased in at 1%/year from 7/1/2013-7/1/2016. You could have easily discovered this information had you simply bothered to go to the STRS website.
As for the number of hours worked, you seem to be assuming that we only do 7-hour workdays for 186 days per year (and then you accidentally transposed digits in your final answer). Do you suppose that my 92 AP Calculus tests grade themselves under my pillow at night while I sleep? And that my lesson plans magically appear, along with all my hand-made tests/quizzes/worksheets/PowerPoints/SmartBoard presentations? During a weeknight, the at-home workload is never less than an hour, and is usually at least two. On the weekends, I typically spend at least 3-4 each day on school. While I was coaching, I barely even got to see my family. I easily pulled 75-hour work weeks while in season. I easily DOUBLE your 1,320 hour figure over the course of a year, and my colleages work just as hard. Next time, walk a mile in our shoes before you judge us.

"We have the 3rd highest paid teachers in the state."

No, you don't. Until you learn how to read numbers, you probably shouldn't be commenting on stories about teacher.
One using "averages" to try to prove their point fails miserably.

Lori,
These are now becoming tiresome responses - "if teaching is so great, why don't you do it"; or "how much do you make". My situation is not relevant. Those are just childish remarks, and only responses when one can't respond in an intelligent manner to points that have been presented.
I presented facts and that's all you got? I don't mind being corrected if I have stated something in error. But don't stoop to these levels. It just shows that you are trying to change the subject and divert the attention away from the statements made.
Fact is, teachers are in a much better place than the private sector - salary, retirement benefits, 3 months off and healthcare. I do not think there is a balance for what getting and what giving. IN MY OPINION.

I find it interesting that so many people choose to view the compensation of teachers as having an annual salary for which they only work 9 months. Why could it not be argued that they only earn 75% of what they might if they were given the opportunity to be in a classroom for 12 months? I believe that there will always be those that would bring up the “3 month’s vacation” argument even if teachers were paid an annual salary equal to no more than the minimum hourly wage times actual hours logged in the school room.

Every teacher I have ever known works an entire school year and then some. I marvel at the notion that teachers make too much money for the time worked. Teaching is a real career choice that is deserving of annual compensation that is at least equal to any that requires the minimum of a bachelor’s degree plus continuing education. A large number of our BBH teachers actually have earned a master’s degree (at no small personal expense) and it shows in the ranking of our district as well as the accomplishment of our kids.

Why in a world where some with no degree can earn in excess of $100,000 and others with PhD’s can labor tireless in a lab for $35,000 do some begrudge teachers their (really not so spectacular) income? Perhaps this is some telling evidence that there is frustration in those that have failed to steer there own careers to a respectable level of personal and financial success.

Many other people go on to get their masters, law degree, PhD. I do not recall ever reading anyone complain about how "boo-hoo", they should get extra for having to acquire what is needed in their profession. It may include therapists, nurses,... They all pay for it. Lots of professions require continuing education - hairstylist, CPA's,... Why should this be a topic when discussing teachers? What about how these professions are continually asked to take cuts? Some of these professionals do not get anywhere near the same retirement and healthcare that teachers get. Quit bringing up the education point - its a moot point.

I have mentioned the education that teachers acquire as relevant because so many seem to view the career as...well...not a career. The fact is that teaching is a serious career that requires serious education and deserves serious compensation. These people have not arrived at their careers with a certificate they earned at a Holiday Inn on a Thursday night. Not a moot point at all really.

I see your reason for bringing it up.
However, just because one has acquired the education necessary for their profession, I say its a moot point when it comes to any discussion about negotiations. Their education is only relevant when determining if they are qualified for the position, and not after.

I understand the position of some that the education needed to get the job should not have endless relevance in how one is compensated for the job. Nonetheless, I still feel strongly that the education that a teacher acquires is not at all a moot point in the course of a discussion that asks a question such as “Why should you get paid for that?” For me a teacher should be paid for “that” because that is what the parameters of the job are. A teacher works for the period of time that is required and then some. It is a career that requires a certain level of education and those that choose to embrace it do so with a level of education that could just as easily be used to pursue a very rewarding career in the private sector. I suspect that a good number of those who are teachers today could have just as easily gone on to be great and well paid engineers, salesman, sales managers, marketing managers, lawyers, doctors, private equity managers, programmers or involved community activists. Some of those jobs would have surely earned one an income in excess of six figures. Fortunately for our kids and our community they chose to trade their valuable training for a career as an educator forever leaving the endless possibilities and opportunity of the private sector behind.

Uhh...pay freezes are a give back.

And when someone asks "where are your givebacks" are shows YOUR ignorance. Perhaps people like you should pay attention AND do SOME research before posting. Or is that asking too much?

"Those are just childish remarks, and only responses when one can't respond in an intelligent manner to points that have been presented. "
Pot, have you met kettle?

A comment has been deleted for a personal attack on another user. Everyone won't agree on this issue, and the debate on here and other related articles has been a healthy one. For the most part, readers have been respecting one another, and that's how we should keep it. Here's our terms of use: http://brecksville.patch.com/terms

— Local Editor Rachel Abbey McCafferty

Wow, aren't we a bit arrogant? It wasn't a complaint, I was just simply stating the facts of the situation. If you are a young teacher looking for a job (especially if you're a young male teacher at the HS level), you'd better be willing to coach and/or supervise at least 1-2 sports/clubs or you don't stand a chance of getting hired. Right or wrong, that's the reality of it. That being said, I've truly enjoyed my coaching experiences over the years. The pay for being a high school assistant girls' track coach back when I had that duty (and it's been awhile...) was around $2500. Indoor practices began in January, 2-3 days a week. During the season, we practiced two hours each weeknight, plus meets on Wed & Sat. The Saturday meets took all day--usually the bus would pull out of BBHHS at 8-9 AM, not to return until well after dinner time. The running joke amongst the coaching staff was when we'd buy our meals (usually some sort of hot dog/soft pretzel deal) at the meet concession stand, we'd probably lost money for the day!!! The season ran through June. I'd have made more working for minimum wage at Taco Bell than I did coaching, so it certainly wasn't about the money. Hey--no hard feelings. Apology accepted.

Rachel-
Actually, deleting Nicole's comment and my response wasn't necessary. I did not mind the attack, as I would have preferred the readers to see how some people think there is a class system, where they place themselves above others. It would also have shown the attitude of certain people feeling entitled during contract times.

Thanks for your response, Lyn, but any personal attacks are going to get deleted for violating our terms of use. We want to have a civil place for discussion.

And I think your comment, because it was a reply, disappeared along with it.

Nicole-
You can try and use my words as your own. But I have no problem with the "support staff" being fairly compensated, because as we all know, these are the first to go.
Face it, your comment of bullying the McDonalds workers shows your true colors.

Lyn,
I wondered if you were from Strongsville. Did they pass a new money levy in March or a renewal? And great if it was new money.... it is unfortunate how Ohio funds the schools but besides freezes and cuts to salary by increasing benefit contributions what else can we do to stay solvent beside pass another new money levy after 8 years. The levy was supposed to last 5, it has been 8. I think the Board dropped the ball by dropping the new money levy. You keep at it, support it, and it will pass. It was getting closer each try. I feel it would have passed in August.

Kelly-
You are right about how wrong it is how Ohio funds its schools.
Some schools really suffer, just because they are in extremely poor areas, while other schools are able to have way more than just the bare minimum required for a students education. Its not fair that some students will not get the same kind of education due to no fault of their own, except for the city they live in. Some will flourish, others will be deprived. Quite unfortunate.

Yes, Ed. I agree and this point Kelly and I touched on lightly above. My post was intended to point out how students in many districts are not given the same opportunities as those in more affluent areas. However, it seems others are more concerned in making sure the teachers salary and benefits are maintained as the first priority. What happens when the funding is made more equitable statewide, will the teachers also be put on an equal payscale? I'm sure there will be lots of backlash to that from the higher paying districts. But that would have to be a result of putting the interests of the children first - throughout the state, to fix funding.

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!

I think you misinterpreted my comments. I was recognizing those other professionals for acquiring additional education without the need to throw the credentials and the fact that they had to acquire them at their own expense and don't need to constantly remind people years later that they needed to do so.

I would like to say, at this point, Jeff, that I do realize there are some great teachers out there. And when contract talks come, unfortunately that fact can get forgotten. But please realize that just because someone does not feel the salary and benefits that you feel are commensurate with the profession are what another
feels to be fair, that does not necessarily take away from the importance of the profession - only that one may feel it has become, as some have put it, a gravy train that some are enjoying. It doesn't mean people are jealous, or want in on the goodies - just want to see what they view is just. And, that comes from ones personal perspective. And, most people are comparing to the private sector.
I'm not sure if I have explained myself clearly without offending, but please know I have tried to do so.

What comments are missing, Dathan? I only remove those that violate our terms of use, and I leave a comment when I do that. If there's some sort of issue, I'll make sure to get it resolved.

Dathan-
Maybe you are looking for the other article with 80+ comments:
"School Board Plans to Look for Substitute Teachers to Work in Case of a Strike"

My bad. I was on the wrong thread of comments. Thanks for removing the comments that violate the terms of use. I only wish that the terms also required people to use their full names like I have done, and that the names were vetted. People that hide behind aliases, and first names only, are clearly not willing to take real ownership of their comments, and diminish the quality of the discourse.

Dathan-
You're welcome!
Glad I was able to help.
Easy mistake to make when more than one article going on a similar topic.

Jim
Thank you for your response... I see the facts got in your way... read the union proposal, finally we got the truth.. Sometimes Jim the truth hurts. Again we voted on the levy we said no more three times......You and your fellow teachers have been measured and found yourself wanting....
Go on strike test the market place for your skils and aptitude after all we are not communists.
This time the disinformation campaign will not work as the Teachers Union Proposal has been found to be nothing more than black mail. WHY CANH'T THE TEACHERS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE THATS ALL WE ARE ASKING....WHAT A SHAME
You take care now Jim the best is et to come

Kevin
Happy to hear you got a job... that is the free market working. If the teachers don't like what they are getting paid they should follow your path.. I am not going to tell them what to do. I pay 100% of my health care the teachers refuse to pay more than 8 % and we cover their spouses... How long do you think the tas payer can afford this? Why won't our teachers pay their fair share? The tax payer is tapped out...
Frank

Congratulations Kevin, on your new job!
Same amount of money, but probably have to work during the summer months, all but the 6 normal observed holidays, and through all the holiday breaks. Not to mention, is your sick time as liberal and able to be accumulated/carried over, and are you paying the same for your healthcare, for yourself and spouse, if applicable?

Kevin its up get the Gazette and read it June 12 page 3 don't forget to read page 2.
Again no more disinformation get the union proposal and read it ....staggering
take care Frank

Frank - you did not even come close to responding to my original post. What are you talking about? Also, I suggest you proofread your post before you submit it!

Lyn hope all is well,
Our teachers currently pay only 8% of their health care premiuns. Their spouses are covered if they are not insured. I requested a copy of the current contract over a year ago. I met with Mr. Prebles for two hours to discuss the contract. These are the facts... but you can go to our district web site and read it and while you are their read the unions current proposal they refuse to pay one penny more in premiums as well as demanding increase in benefits... those are the straight facts for all to read.
Further Lyn by not agreeing to a contract by June 30 all teachers receive their pay freeze they agreed to for 2012 in other words there never was a pay freeze remeber the freeze you were told about when the new levy was voted on? Well so much for that story.
The tax payer misled again
Frank

But, what is the current DOLLAR amount of that 8% that they pay for single or family coverage?

Frank, I'm not sure what contract you were reading but it wasn't from BBH. The teachers pay 10% of their health benefits now and offered to pay 15% in the new contract. No increase in benefits, and no refusal to pay more but offering to pay more... They did have a pay freeze for past two years... It's difficult to negotiate with people that are not willing to sit down and talk. Please stop posting if you don't really know the facts.

Frank
I can assure YOU that I pretty much already knew that if you do a poor job you will be fired. As for not getting a raise for poor work - are you saying that the teachers are doing a poor job? Look at the state report card. Also, lets all try and remember that this is not about me asking for a raise - because I'm NOT asking for one

Kelly-
first, come on - I have not said anything to make you "sick" , just that you do not like that I ask questions that show I feel the terachers are overpaid. I'm entitled to that opinion.
second, you know nothing of my family and who lives where, or where I have lived or may be moving to

There should be no problem with people questioning what taxpayers are asked to pay for or in having a different opinion. This is why people are pleased with transparency.

Lyn, Transparency, please. The current white house administration promised to be the most transparent administration that we have ever seen. Hows that worked out so far. Let me tell you this, EVERY person who was ever elected or hired and is in charge of taxpayer dollars is a theif and a liar and they should all be put in jail - just like Dimora and Russo (soon to be in jail) and the 80+ other Cuyahoga County officials that plead guilty for corruption. They all think they have a blank check to do with whatever they want with the money. Remember, its not their money, its our money. New lawfirm being used????? I wonder which one on the board gets to spend time on that firms yacht or go to there summer home in the Hamptons. Follow the money, who hired them? They are all corrupt - the elected public servants and the unions.

The point another was making was that while the teachers kept making more and more, the kids, who this should always be about, remained with old technology. Or lets try again - if the kids were really put first, the kids needs would have advanced before making sure that the teachers were given continual increases.
Priorities should be:
1.) KIDS
2.) Teachers pay
Not the reverse.
That is what education is all about. That is what has been forgotten in all of this.

Kelly.
Respectfully you don't have a clue. I am a geek we burn windows XP because we have to give the money to the teachers... If you want to suck it up by all means write a check to your favorite teacher but lkeave me out of it. In the middle of a financial melt down the teachers got their hands out yet again... greed greed and more greed. Its not about the kids its about the money read the contract. My son is being taught by a teacher that is clueless she brags about having a masters but like nearly all of the teachers the only masters they hold is in teaching not in Math, not in science, not in english but in "Teaching" My son is in advanced math and is being taught by a teacher with a masters in "TEACHING" not in math. By the way I paid for her masters in "TEACHING" are you kidding me. Last point my sons teacher took 15 days off this past school year nearly everyone of them was on Friday or Monday...every day off was with pay
Suck that up?

Are you kidding me? I am a geek a programmer for over 15 years. I was in the central school computer room... XP is not updated because of lack of funds...because of the teachers get paid first. 85% of every levy goes to salaries and benefits your benefits. The servers at Central School ar infected with 27 viruses and worms. My son goes to school there he emailed me with the issue. The security certificate was not renewed on the server.......Let me tell you what that means... every students email can be hacked... I had my son delete his email account.... I contacted the Schoool Board and the super on the issue.... they don't have the money.......period because they are paying YOU.
You should be ashamed of yourself how dare you post a straigt faced lie.... I don't want a teacher like you ever to teach my son you will say anything for money... I beg you go on strike....please we are tired of the lies and the misinformation.....
Shame on you lady

BTW: That is why I am not currently using my name on this blog for my replies as the board may try to retaliate.

Frank

4:16 pm on Saturday, July 7, 2012

Are you kidding me? I am a geek a programmer for over 15 years. I was in the central school computer room... XP is not updated because of lack of funds...because of the teachers get paid first. 85% of every levy goes to salaries and benefits your benefits. The servers at Central School ar infected with 27 viruses and worms. My son goes to school there he emailed me with the issue. The security certificate was not renewed on the server.......Let me tell you what that means... every students email can be hacked... I had my son delete his email account.... I contacted the Schoool Board and the super on the issue.... they don't have the money.......period because they are paying YOU.
You should be ashamed of yourself how dare you post a straigt faced lie.... I don't want a teacher like you ever to teach my son you will say anything for money... I beg you go on strike....please we are tired of the lies and the misinformation.....
Shame on you lady

Check your facts Frank. Go to the source. Check with the tech people (John Shinker or Dan Kaufman) on why it is not updated to Vista (as I said, I don't know about Windows 7), and not your 10-11 year old kid.

BTW: since a school district is a labor heavy workplace, 85% isn't out of line. It is the same at UPS and FedEx. There is no product to produce, so labor is the highest expense. Check your facts.

Check your facts Frank, I'm not a lady.

Check your facts Frank. It isn't 85% of every levy. Some levies are for operating funds, others are for permanent improvement. Levies for improvement cannot be used for operating expenses and vice versa.

I dare because I know the actual facts because I've talked to the actual people involved. I don't make up my 'facts' to suit my arguments like you seem to be doing Frank.

A couple more facts Frank. I wasn't always a teacher. I actually took a large pay cut to become a teacher. I did that because I enjoyed working with kids and seeing them understand things for the first time. I have only recently reached the point where I am making the same amount that I was 14 years ago. Does that sound greedy to you?

Breck
I am happy to hear that you decieded to do what would make you most happy. Nothing worse than going to a job you hate. You must know that asking for teachers to pay 20% of their health care is not a crazy request especially in the times that we are in. Its clear to me that our teachers could care less about the tax payers... just read the postings. Remember this though you wanted to be a teacher, you knew what you were getting into. You got it made the starting pay at St. Barnabus is $18,000. My niece has a phd in math she made peanuts at Beaumont.... Some where along the line our teachers thought the gravy train would never end... that was a mistake... The teachers of this district have lost the respect of many of the residents young and old. When you loose respect its over... I was going to vote for the renewal but after reading the proposed contract from the union ... no way. The thought that our teachers refuse to pay $200 on a $1000 health care premium is an insult to most residents, more than you know.
Good luck to you

Kevin,My brother is a retired navy captain decorated in multiple wars as a pilot....and your point is? Stop with the distractions address your contract, that is the point. You refuse to share the pain isn't it that the issue? Of course it is... I am the voice of myself. THREE times sir the voters asked you to share the pain but you refused to...I am not the issue your contract is stay on point....
I am going to try teaching... since we have to pay you so much money it seems we don't have enough money for a computer class for the 6th graders so I am going to start a club and teach it... I am going through the process now. Kevin can you imagine that in 2012 with technology changing the world we don't have a computer class for our kids? Why because you won't share our pain.
Congradulations on your brothers accomplishemnts I think his last name id Goode is it not? Thats one hell of a job, but I don't think he would be on the shuttle with a masters in TEACHING... just kidding
You can sit in on my class if you want to brush up on your skills... no charge... love to have ya
Take care all the best

Michelle
I hope this day is finding you well. You have lost the argument with your personal attack. Our teachers have given up nothing that adds up to anything. I have all of your contracts i have read them and met with the super and the treasurer of our district at length in person. But look, if you don't like the offer made by the school board don't take it. There are 25,000 teachers out of work and I dare say there are thousands waiting to teach in Brecksville. If you think you are worth more money than test the market place...I have no problem with pay raises to our teachers BUT only for those that deserve it. Michelle please don't insult me anymore with statments that is not true.No one put a gun to your head to be a teacher. We need good teachers no doubt and I am willing to pay for good teachers.... give up your tenure and senority stand on your own two feet if you are good at your profession you wil have nothing to worry about. You arguement falls on deaf ears I am a single father that gave up everything for my son don't lecture me go to work and stop complaining you should be happy you have a job.
Enjoy your day Michelle

"You have lost the argument with your personal attack."

But, it's okay for you to make personal attacks, huh?
Would you like some whine with your cheese, cowardly hypocrite.

Oops, I "lost that argument" because I called you out (or, as whiners like you say, "personal attack.")

Saying that teachers stand behind tenure and seniority is far from truth either when there was at least one teacher disciplined in the last few years. That one teacher was fired and another may have been asked to go on leave. (I will not mention their names because that is extremely rude, if you question the validity of the statement talk to Prebles) If you read the contract you would have seen that teachers can easily be disciplined and fired if they are performing unsatisfactory. Ben Lesh has even said in statements that the BEA does not support teachers who perform unsatisfactory.

I also want to end by saying that complaining about not having the money for a computer course for your 6th grade son while proudly trumpeting that you will vote down the renewal levy and any new money levy is beyond ironic.

Nelly,
If you don't like the contract that is proposed by the school board don't accept it....I am sorry but our teachers are not the only teachers in the world. Look if you don't want to pay 20% $200 per $1000 in premiuns don't take the deal....... Nelly I read the union proposal its reads you do not want to pay one penny more for your health care until 2015.... it reads that you want your perks increased, you jnow the perk you get for going to work... that one is precious... explain to the voters that you get a bonus for not missing a day of work on a quartely basis... you can't make this stuff up. I know you have plenty of time to post your thoughts after all you don't work in the summer.....
I however have to go to work
Wow Nelly...............lol

Kate-
This seems rather petty. This forum is not like a platform for delivering a doctoral dissertation. As I said, we ALL make mistakes on here, and I know I have and will.
But if you want me to point out your mistakes as I believe them to be, I will:
1) "educational opportunities you recieved" - received
2) "half-truths you have been spread" - spreading; or, have spread?
3) "And hey, heres another idea" - here's
4) "you have lost this conversation" - as previously stated, you lose an argument, not a conversation.
Also, instead of writing:
"I wish you had used the educational opportunities you recieved ...", I would have written
"I wish you had used the educational opportunities you had received ..." . But which is correct, I don't know.
Also, your last sentence in this latest comment ends as follows:
"...I did not clarify that." I may very well be wrong, but I though one was not to end a sentence with the word "that".
I do not claim to be a grammar or spelling expert, so my points may not be valid. If not, I apologize.

OK!
Though should be thought.
I told you I will make mistakes.

Lyn, you remind me of someone I graduated with, her name is Renee. Are you related to a Renee? And may I suggest meeting Frank for coffee you seem to have a lot in common and it would give you something else to do besides constantly attack other's views and correct their grammar.

Kelly,
I suggest you reread the comments between Kate and myself.
I first simply said that before she criticizes someone for poor grammar and spelling, that she should make sure she does not make the same errors. SHE came back and asked what were her errors, and since she still believed her post did not contain any errors, I listed them. If I wanted to make an issue out of her mistakes, I would have listed them in the first comment.
I think its rather clear to see the point of my original point was to say watch your own grammar and spelling and grammar before pointing out others failings in this area - as I know I may make many errors as well. It has been a LONG time since my last English class, so I know that it would not be "fitting" (pun intended) for me to be the Patch monitor related to this subject.

Actually only a little more than half of your property taxes goes to the schools. The property tax breakdown published on the city of Brecksville website can be found here: http://www.brecksville.oh.us/Depts/finance_images/11_property-tax.jpg

The conclusion that an offering may no longer hold an attractive value may well be the result of a poor marketing effort. Uninformed, misguided and confused consumers will often make choices that end in regret.
The 2012-2013 tuition cost of the fine education that can be had at Cleveland's St. Ignatius High School is $13,220.00. I believe it is a very good value. I also believe that the education that has been offered to the moment at BBHHS is a better value. For me it is in fact a comparative bargain.
The cost to a society that only makes education available to those that can afford it is inconceivable to me. Where is a licensed actuary when you need one?

Kate-
I'm not sure what comments you are deleting, but I have no problem with a respectful debate, and this will mean people have differing opinions.
Many people feel the students are the ones to ultimately suffer - but the reason and cause for this to happen IS what is debatable. And, as I had previously written, it should be kids first, teachers second - "That is what education is all about. That is what has been forgotten in all of this."
I know writing on the Patch can sometimes be frustrating. But, even though we may not always agree - keep it up.
Regarding the "corrections", I really did not want to respond to your question. But I thought if I did not, that you would have thought I was just attacking without backing up my statement, and I try not to do that. Again, we ALL make mistakes - I'm sure there's plenty in this post!
I guess we just need to all be more tolerant and respect others opinion, even though they may not be the same as our own. That's what makes us adults, and we can set a good example for the kids.

I believe that teachers have received that which was agreeably offered for services rendered. I value those services and would be willing to pay a bit more to keep the BBH system at its current standard. That said, the revenue stream that services the education system *has* taken a hit. The simple fact is that the BBH system will not have sufficient funds to meet its obligations under the current structure. The system will need some level of compromise on compensation for district employees and an increase in funding or there is inevitable risk of implosion of a system that feature both favorable working conditions and a record of educational excellence.

Negotiators will need to make an assessment of both the financial numbers and the value of a solid award winning school district functioning in harmony with its employees, the risk that labor tension brings to the quality of our children’s education and judgment of our communities as well as the value of employment in a school district that has proven to be a very good place to spend a career. Is there not value here beyond cost and compensation? Perhaps it is too easy for me to say yes when I am outside looking in but I will say that I have accepted employment with consideration to both compensation as well as the favorable conditions of the working environment. I took a little less money to have a little more fun. Good trade for me.

Both sides pushing too hard will result in irreparable damage too the BBH school district and some very difficult career reassessment by its employees where the biggest losers will be our children. Their education will become a rebuilding project of questionable quality for some time to come.

I know the BOE has a tough job. The numbers are clear and the challenge well defined. In the end though, I believe that the responsibility of preserving the quality of our system falls in the hands of the BOE members along with the community that provides funding and not the systems employees.

Jim
I am just a geek my ability to communicate in english is limited but believe it or not I can read. I read the Teachers Union proposal seems to me Jim that all of the misinformation that the teahers or union has been spreading for years has been exposed. Had the people of Brecksville read your contract like I did years ago they would never vote for a renewal let alone new money.... sorry Jim your on the wrong side of this one....I am sure your a good guy but the days of sky high pay raises and lavish benefits are over....The fact that you used our children as a bargaining chip is...well I won't say. I have a child in the system if I could afford it I would take him out I don't want him being taught by greedy teachers that only care about money and their days off..... not all of them... but enough of them to make the rest look very bad. I can tell you this the residents are not talking about how they can settle this issue they are saying I can't believe the teachers want more money.....factoid Jim

Bill I agree this matter is up to the resdents of our community.
We got into this mess because we made promises in the past that we could not keep in the future.The tax payer has clearly said enough of this by voting down three times new money. I am tired of my family getting beat over the head with levies and threats of strike. I have no idea what you do for a living but the following is a fact, In the past 38 years in the business community and as a business owner for the past 26 years I never gave a pay raise to an employee if he/she did not earn it. Every pay raise I ever received before I started my business was based strictly on my ability to do my job. If our teachers can't live with paying 20% of there medical among other sacrifices than I would say strike if you don't like the offer, take your skills and go into the free market and find your true value..... doesn't seem hard to understand
Take care and enjoy your weekend

Michelle
Stop using our chikdren as a bargaining chip. Pay your fair share
Have a great summer with pay

Michelle,
What has happened already: AP Calc teacher, Jeff Luce, leaves for Beachwood; First year business teacher, Sarah Muller, leaves for Midview; her intended replacement backs out and goes to Mentor; science teacher, Mike Schmidt, leaves for Hudson; the intended science teacher hire declines BBHHS for Kenston; Don Kucharski leaves for private sector. We had significant retirements, and along with these other departures, we did not need to have our first choices running the other way. Other excellent employees are exploring other options outside of education and could deal even more blows if something is not settled soon. How odd that people so intent on their business perspectives overlook the essential element to any organization, its people. The district has invested money in training and developing their teachers' talents. Good organizations know the value of employee retention and the difference between being penny wise and pound foolish.

Dathan-
You just destroyed the reason some people say you can't pay attention to the term "average". So, its NOT just the new, low paid teachers who leave. That was why some say the average is so high. If higher paid teachers are leaving, then the "average" must really be distorted on the low side.

Frank,
Are you expecting the same high quality of work out of teachers who are having their salaries slashed and are constantly being brought down by the board and by parents? When I say that the quality of the school will decrease if the board and the community keep going down this road, it is not a threat or an attempt to use children as bargaining chips--it is a fact of life. You get what you pay for, and if this community is not willing to pay for our excellent teachers, then I can guarantee it's not going to have very many excellent teachers in a few years.

Michelle-
I can't believe I read what you have just written!
Yes, I WOULD expect the same quality of work out of my employee, regardless of giving them a pay raise or a pay cut. Otherwise, they have no business collecting any paycheck. They have a duty to perform at 100%, regardless. To do any less is unprofessional and behaving like a child.

Obviously, these changes were after those average numbers were collected since they just occurred, and you must have missed "first year business teacher." BTW, our salary schedule is in line with comparable districts. I really recommend you read "Black Swan" by Niassim Taleb since everyone is falling for the same thinking biases he talks about.

Dathan-
I did read you mentioned the ONE teacher was a first year, as well as the others who had been there - NOT TO MENTION that you said "We had significant retirements". So, please do not continue to try and explain that averages should not be considered when comparing to other districts. Once again, all other districts are effected in the same manner, and others have been hit harder than Brecksville.
Since you like to refer people to other books, why don't you go to any dictionary and look up "average". It is a valid number if applied in the same manner to all districts.
Also, check out "TV Guide" for 10:00 tonight - that will tell you what I'll be wasting my time doing for the next hour.
I'm tired of this "holier than thou" attitude. I received a wonderful education in the district I attended, I had some great teachers, took several advanced classes (you may be able to tell which kind by my postings, but it might not be "fitting" for me to list them) and it was my college education that led to my profession. Yes, the college prep courses in high school helped. But, I give my parents and myself much more credit.
I'm done with this useless debate.

lyn,
Would you be willing to take a salary cut because the public thinks you are overpaid, regardless of the quality of your work? Would you stay at the same company (or wherever you work), doing the same things, after being treated that way? I wouldn't.

And to clarify, there should be reasonable limits on salaries in any profession (I'm looking at you, bank CEOs!) If our former AP calculus teacher can get paid more money to teach 7th grade math in another district, then we are clearly not even close to overpaying our teachers.

Frank:

Let's call a spade a spade, shall we??? The voters did elect this board, those who take the time to register in the first place, followed by the small number who actually cast a ballot. Regardless, the voters did elect these board members, hopefully for a single term based upon their prowess with negotiations.....so I don't blame the board for their actions. They are doing exactly what they told the voters they would do.....and if their actions cause the district to lose the great heritage that has taken years to assemble, those that voted them in will get what they wanted.

The teachers are not responsible for the economy, nor are they appropriate to be used as scapegoats for every resident who thinks a professional teacher should be making $30K per year just because they aren't happy with their career or job.

This district has failed to support the schools for the last 40 years despite many of those voting no to new levy money having moved here for the good schools. The economy tanked in 2008, not in 1972. Multiple attempts to get new funds have been the norm here, good times and bad, so maybe the voters in this district should step back and stop blaming the teachers, stop blaming the former and current board....the voters killed bussing at the high school, the voters lost AP classes. Look in the mirror people. If you didn't think there was a cost for great schools, you were mistaken.

more

Its ONLY about the teachers.
Several had written that it was not about the money. So, I asked if they were willing to take a paycut and pay more immediately into their healthcare in exchange for agreeing to all the other terms in their proposed contract. The response was NO.
And, what makes the teachers in the more affluent suburbs so much better that they are entitled to more than other districts? And those other districts are more challenging for a teacher in many respects. Compared to those other districts, those working in the more affluent districts have it easier yet get paid more - and the parents tend to have more involvement, or are able to give more guidance. The students success can also largely be attributed to those parents and community - because they also do not have some of the negative distractions that exist in some of the poorer areas. Give credit also where it is due. So, again, why should some district teachers be paid so much more? Why not put these salaries in line with other districts?

lyn,
The pay the teachers are being asked to take is draconian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A57059It7E&feature=related (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wwIxie9e4&feature=related (part 2)

Michelle Williams-
But, what about my question - how do you justify paying teachers in affluent suburbs more than in poorer ones? Actually, I feel those others are facing more challenges and get rewarded less. So, why shouldn't the new contract be adjusted to reflect what other districts pay on average?

lyn,
Ideally, I would love to see poorer districts offer higher salaries, in order to attract teachers of the highest caliber. However, bringing down the salaries of teachers in a more affluent district will not help the poorer districts. It will only hurt the affluent districts. Example: the average income of a household in a poor district is lower than the average income of a household in an affluent district. Should we start paying the people in the affluent district less in order to even out the difference? And, if we do, should we expect the quality of life in the poor district to go up because we lowered the affluent district?

Michelle-
How can you be missing my point, or are you choosing to miss the point?
Paying teachers the same as in poorer districts has nothing to do with the quality of life in a poor district. It just means that you make their pay equal, especially when those teachers in a poor area have greater challenges presented to them. Which teacher has to work harder for their paycheck and which earns more, simply because of the income of the people living in the district? Those in more affluent areas are, in my opinion, overpaid. Nothing requires these top 10 districts to have teachers make so much more than other districts. Do you see any high paid teachers in poor areas? Its all relative - and the wealthier taxpayers are being held hostage to the unions. Do you really think that the teachers in those 10 districts are so much better than all the other districts in the state?

lyn,
I understand what you are saying, that teachers in poor districts get paid less and work under worse conditions. But you have to realize that most of the schools in poor districts do much worse on average on standardized tests, have lower graduation rates, and usually have worse conditions for the students to learn in such as outdated technology, old books, and large classroom sizes, just to name a few. This is NOT because the kids are any less intelligent or deserving than the kids in affluent districts: it is simply because the schools have less money. So if the Brecksville-Broadview Heights community wishes to reduce the pay of teachers and the money our school has to the level of poorer communities, you must understand that the quality of our schools will also decrease to the level of poorer communities. You asked "do you see any high paid teachers in poor areas?" If you pay our teachers the same as teachers in inner city Cleveland are paid, then you will lose them. Their replacements will be willing to be paid a lower salary, but will they have the same experience and quality of our current teachers? Then our kids will have to struggle harder to get high test scores and get into good colleges. This will not help the poorer communities one bit, but it will certainly hurt our community and our kids, at the price of being "fair." In your opinion, our teachers are overpaid, but in my opinions, the teachers in less affluent districts are underpaid.

Frank,
I am not a teacher. But the teachers WILL go on strike, or just quit, if nothing from the board's side changes. If that's what you want, then you are certainly on track to get it.

Frank:

Thanks so much for finally admitting that you are CONFUSED! I've been thinking that for some time now!

Frank, you seriously think that the teachers are strippers and drug addicts? I am seriously worried about the child you are raising. You express such anger and hatred, it is not healthy. Do you realize that because of the things you say you lose your credibility. I really think you need help.

Taxpayers do not pay my salary.
Your comment on the poor is very telling on your feelings about those less fortunate and living in poorer areas. Just who is greedy and selfish in this discussion?
However, you miss the point in your ranting. Good teachers do not just work in the top 10 districts of the state. And they do not just work in affluent districts. However, teachers that work in same do pull in the largest paychecks just because they have convinced the wealthier residents, with the help of union pressure, that they are responsible for their childrens success. I'm saying, the success is mainly due to the child, family, upbringing and community - and then the teachers after all those other factors. The teachers in less fortunate areas have to work much harder for less money, and my question is - you think they are not as good as those working in the top 10 paying districts?

And ,yes, I have supported new money levies. But, not every one in the past 10 years or so.
Also, I should not have to write a check for any amount when I have had to, every year, be responsible for more and more healthcare costs and have not had the same benefits of the salary increases every year. Why should I pay for someone else's better benefits and my own as well?

Not even worth a response.
No logic in your comment.

Nicole-
What does Medicaid have to do with this discussion?
You have become so tightly wound that you are now confused.
I hope you are not a teacher, just what you seem - a young, immature person who has not learned to control their emotions or to conduct themselves in a manner that is flattering to oneself.

Kevin-
I cannot give you an accurate figure.
You are assuming people punch a timeclock and only work 8 hours per day. Just because that is what the job requires, it also is a must that the job demands more hours if projects need completed or clients need to be meant with. We don't cry to our boss about these extra hours. Its part of the job.
So, yes - 6 paid holidays and a few weeks paid vacation. But add in many hours overtime each week for which there is no extra pay. When one receives a salary, you are expected to be there to do the job as long as it takes, when the job demands it to be done. Not paid hourly. So, it actually amounts to over 2080 hours. There is no union demanding more pay or else we strike - a bit more professional.

lynn, I will make this brief - and thank you for not attacking me or my profession. Teachers do not punch a time clock either, and I will not go on the rant that others have earlier in this post, but teachers work beyond the regular 8 hour work day too. I appreciate your civil comments and understand where you are coming from. Thank you again for being rational in your argument - but please understand my side too.

Edward,
I appreciate that you work hard and many hours. I understand where the perception and calculation of teachers' hours comes from too. You mentioned that your calculations didn't include work on your own time, and I need to point out that the same is true for your calculation of teachers' time. A trial lawyer doesn't work only in the courtroom, a salesman doesn't work only during a sales presentation, and a teacher doesn't work only during class time. Planning time during the day is consumed with giving extra help, administering make-up work and tests, attending meetings with parents, guidance counselors and administrators, waiting in line to make copies, returning phone calls and emails, etc. Everything else falls outside of the day and on our own time. I get requests for about 20 letters of recommendation each year, and it takes at least an hour to do a good one. Preparing material for daily lessons can take hours too. It is like a salesman preparing a presentation to their most important client everyday. Then there is grading, data entry, maintaining web pages, re-writing courses of study and more. Grading alone is significant. I have had recent student loads as high as 183 but 165 is a more representative average. It takes about 5 minutes to grade one exam so almost 14 hours outside the day.

Part 2
To be fair I don't give tests every week, but I do have other assignments that when taken together require about the same amount of time. Starting at your 1295, if you divide 185 by a 5 day work week and multiply by the 14 hours of grading, you get 1813. Again, this value ignores additional lesson preparation. I don't hope to change anyone's mind, but I would like to see civil discussions.

Frank - I am sorry that you missed my point. I was just pointing out that the 2,080 hours is not a fair comparison. When did I say that I was going to MIT or IBM. And by the way, I am the same person that told you that, with no experience in the field, I am working for a fortune 500 company in Cleveland and they are paying me the same that I was making teaching. Next time I ask for a direct response to what I consider to be misleading information (2,080 hour work year - assuming no holidays or vacation time) - I would appreciate you responding directly to my point instead of going off in some other direction. Please stop insulting me (and others in my profession). You are really beginning to sound very bitter - and for no reason. Have you eve been in my classroom - or spoken with any of my former students? Again, please stop insulting teachers and focus your argument on more solid grounds.

Amen!

Charlie,
I am not a teacher, but I did attend the most recent board meeting (not the one Ronnie referred to), and I can certainly assure you that there was no "circus-like" atmosphere or chanting. There was some booing from other community members (not teachers and not students) sitting around me. I believe statement about "frivolously spending precious taxpayer dollars" referred to the board's collaboration with Huffmaster's, a strike security firm. They spend $762 for one day of consultation, and as I understand, this happened after only 5 negotiation sessions and before the teacher's union even took the vote necessary to authorize a strike. As far as the teacher's strike being a threat used to intimidate children and get more money out of the community--that does not fairly represent the situation. I'm running out of room in this post, so I will continue below with the reasons the BEA has given as to why they voted to authorize a strike (IF necessary) with a 99.5% majority.

"The Association took the vote because the Board's actions forced them to believe the district plans to unilaterally implement a contract, a choice that will skip the negotiations process altogether. A unilaterally implemented contract would ignore the collective bargaining process and force the teachers in the district to accept the Board’s imposed terms and conditions of employment. The Association further believes that this unprecedented move by the Board is imminent because of the following facts:
• When Mark Dosen and Mike Ziegler were elected to the Board, they immediately fired the Board’s long standing and respected legal counsel and hired one known for strong-armed tactics that lead to labor chaos.
• The Board began negotiating a successor agreement through the public by unlawfully posting initial proposals and seeking public comments.
• After less than five days of initial negotiations, the Board contracted with Huffmasters, a strike security firm, and paid them $762 of precious taxpayer money for just one day of consultation.
• At the end of the school year, the Superintendent directed employees to turn in teaching materials, prompting teachers to clear out personal possessions from their classroom.

• The Board ended good faith negotiations prematurely by declaring impasse before all issues in the initial proposals were discussed. This came just one day after reassuring the community that they were committed to bargaining in good faith. Impasse is the first step in the process of forcing a contract on the teachers.
• Just two days after forcing impasse, the Board began to advertise for scab replacement substitutes to steal work from highly qualified, experienced and educated employees.
Furthermore, despite already engaging in illegal public negotiations, the Board has attempted to coerce, intimidate and muzzle the voices of employees by filing frivolous Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) charges against individual teachers. The Association estimates that each ULP filed will cost the taxpayers between $10,000 - $20,000 each."

Lenore, I feel so sorry for you... I can't imagine what your son must be thinking of his teacher. But this is nothing new our kids have been used for years... Everytime there is a levy they threaten cuts that will hurt parents and their kids, cut busing, cut AP, pay motre and more to play or participate all the while getting pay raises. I have children in the system and I am sick of it. Take a look at the signs on the front of Central School they refer to the kids again... Try to find out who is on the Issues Committee and who is giving them their money? Don't feel bad Lenore you will appreciate this one.
My son got off the bus in 2008...at the corner of my street. As usual I asked him how his day was... He responds as follows" My teacheer told me to tell you to vote for Obama..... she told me you owed it to him because he was a slave......
You should send your above thoughts to the Scot Prebles......
What an outrage, this is what the mafia does "intimidate"
Hang in there Lenore you are in my prayers

Frank: When I was in the school system teachers were very careful not to express their personal political views and encouraged critical thinking on the issues. Are you sure your son wasn't trying to push your buttons?

I'm not a teacher and I don't live in Ohio any longer ;)

What??

I have no affiliation with Frank. And What's wrong with Heinen's?

Charlie,
A man (I'm assuming Frank) spoke at the last board meeting, saying that he was Charlie's dad. Then he said that a lot of families he knew were having to make sacrifices because of the bad economy, and that some people had to transition from shopping at Heinen's to shopping at Giant Eagle. So I think Nicole is talking about that, and not you :)

Nicole,
I also noticed that Mr. Tryon kept bringing up how many changes the board vs. the BEA had made to the contract. I thought the same things you did!

I asked Tryon about Prebles through email. This is what TRYON said, " Mr Prebles was deeply involved in preparing the Board proposal. He continues to be involved in the negotiation process. He is not at the "table" because that process is very time consuming and the district needs it's executive officer working on administrative matters and interacting with the teachers. Mr. Prebles agreed with this approach." I am not sure if it is true or not. I don't believe what Tryon and Dosen say. They are set on their agenda and have their hands over their ears while making condescending comments to all that speak. Their little smirks say it all along with their comments. Yes I agree that is ALL Tryon offered were numbers on the language corrections the union made. Like he doesn't have time to deal and read it. Guess what buddy you signed on for it, so get to it. This Board is a joke. Prebles has his hands tied and is no doubt wishing he never set foot in our community. It is a shame because he is a good man.

Why not ask if Lyn is a guy or gal's name - as it could be either. But, how about actually short for something else, like Mike is for Michael, or like Tony is for Anthony. Maybe its short for Lyndon, or Evelyn, or Marilyn?

True- your post should be deleted, just like all the others.

True we need Frank to re enter the conversation......whats life with out a whipping boy
lol